Dividing a community…

I thought KB had made some very valid points, he maybe could have expressed himself in a better way... and looking back on it i'm sure I could have too, but that thread really wasn't pretty lol. If we have issues with game then we should be able to express ourselves without being attacked by a bunch of zealots.

An Elite Member told me shut up... to go make my own game and also went on a small rant about how Microsoft makes buggy software after me saying that barely anyone plays Paradise on 360 because of it's issues, An ELITE MEMBER said this! I'm pretty sure those guys are supposed to be impartial and set an example to the rest of us. To me... how he got his Elite status is a mystery but it definetly should be revoked.

Im sorry, I havent seen any of these forums. I didnt even know Criterion had a forum? Maybe I should go and check it out and post that Paradise isnt that it is all cracked up to be. 

IT FEELS GOOD! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

Thread locked. We all know the Criterion team are ps3 biased, you only need to look at the home page pretty much everthing on here is focused toward the ps3.

Now i really don't have a problem with this, the thing i do have a problem with is the "elite" ps3 posters, They have an average age of 12 and an IQ to match.

I recently posted a topic asking the "team" to explain why the same bugs were not present in the ps3 version, and i was met with some kid telling me to search the forums before i post and then some half assed answer about coding.

Zombies post about going back to the system of a forum for each console made sense, But alas as with most Threads the tron starts or comments in, are promptly locked or deleted. I'd be getting paranoid if i were you zom.

I know really ought to post more on the forums, putting my point of view across, but speaking your mind when you are as opinionated as i am, will probably get me a swift ban,

Brown nosed burnout team rocks zealots need not reply. and i'll put as many ****ing ???????????????? as i damn well please.

my dog ate my disc.

i read them forums all the time lol but i wouldnt dare post in them....why?.....for the exact reasons given above.{Plus the fact ive never played the game so i cant really pass comment.} Every other thread ive read somehow always ends up in an obliterated flame war.....i think every person is entitled to speak there mind and express there opinions but some people just take it that step too far....some of them threads start of pretty decent then you get the random dumbass that starts it off and if this dumbass happens to be an elite poster all the little posters tend to jump on the bandwagon and then all hell breaks lose...its mean really because then the thread gets banned and the topic is forgotten and sometimes the topic needs to be addressed..i think the main problem in there is POWER as soon as these people become ELITES the power goes to their head and they think they know better than everyone else and they can post what they like....i know alot of them who dont stick to the T&CS and that, even though theyre quick enough to remind others of them...even if somebody has something trivial to post it doesnt mean they should be attacked for it because to them it isnt trivial otherwise they wouldnt feel the need to ask for response of others....so will i ever post in there? no....but i do look forward to seeing nito post in there and what kind of response he gets.....hes good with words so i dont think hell have too much of a problem defending himself.....good luck nito.......your going to need it...lololol.....

Some are so new, they have only played Paradise, but there are others that have not, and like what Paradise has to offer, but just coming from a Racing, Take Down, Crashing community, all were quite seperate, until Burnoutaholics came out(not like the whole truth, but history is to those who write it), other sites were around, and doing well, some kept to crashing, racing and just all round places to met via the web, and then from there, meet up for real, hence this site was born.

But we try to keep it all contained with in this site, using all the sites for reference, then Criterion liked what Xambie  were doing and expanded what they were doing with the Criterion site, liking the community around their awesome games, well made, 60 fps etc.

But That first Podcast, said if you liked Revenge you will probaly not get on with Paradise, they knew where they were going, and we were then set a drift as it were.

The first version of the game had very restricted online modes, which were the normal on most other games, caused some out cry, the lag issues with Takedowns, the races too short, not lappable etc, If you need to know more read some blogs from them days and some recent on Criterions Forums.

But then Criterion came up with lets give a year of community related updates and working with them, seeing where people were taking their game, Free-burn mostly, because the racing did not work, not saying it was bad, just not working, again crappy take downs, lag etc but looking at the telemetry, Free Burn and Challenges were what people were doing, as well as, looking for places to glitch or abuse bugs etc, or find places to Park. All part of the year of Paradise, lots of it fun and helped the Team fix them, which is one of the reasons to do this it improves the game.

I troll the Criterion Forums, help, contribute and ask questions, and all the stuff I wanted to know about, I get on the videos, since then, though, still waiting for Car Mechanics, as they are very different to the other games, I still don't get how they drive, yet, but plodding through, with my own thoughts about them.

Paradise is a step back, not like a walk away but, lets chill, hangout type of thing, and used as such is fun, but there are a lot of people than wanted RACING, taken to another Level, and they only way is to complain, winge, cry, beg, ask, and list what they wanted for Paradise, on a forum set up for that, and all they get back is Bugger Off, not community minded, stick with the program, you are not one of us. We were one of you before you were born, Human like the rest, who like Criterion, and their games, so you spitting in our faces, can be wipped off, and we will look back and say grow up, we are the community, and we could kick your ssa on most games with in the cannon, even with the what we find is an inferior racing system that is on Paradise. Not the only complaint about Paradise, but one of the strongest. Roofer the loudest, lol.

Alot of people did not like Revenge, the dratsab child of the series with the Traffic checking and the crashing changed etc, again lost of posts and stuff on this too.

We all have our favorite, again listed else where.

But we are all the community, and be nice, we all want a great game!

Sorry to be continued, I have Squiffy, Xandu and Zombietron, here, discussing it for real, but RockBanding for the most part.

Patience is something I taught myself, so I never know when it's going to run out?

So your waiting for me to post eh? I will post something tomorrow but Im not even sure what to talk about because everything that will be coming out of my mouth will be "I get more P**SY than you" so shut the F up! LOLOL. Just kidding. In reality, I will look at it (now that I know about it), but I have no intention of posting at a forum where "Elites" cant even handle themselves properly. BTW how do they become elites anyways? Is it because they completed the game or something and have 1000 GS on Paradise? Cause Im if that was the case, IMO thats a VERY LOW Standard for what an Elite is. 

IT FEELS GOOD! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

This has to be the funniest quote from the criterion forum board and it answers your question too nito....

Elite Fans
A few of our posters that are reliable sources of info – these guys know Paradise as well as anyone!
This is a closed group, new members can only join upon invitation of a group leader.    

Xandu, I think you're sugarcoating things a little bit. KB didn't post on the forums simply that racing "is NOT as brilliant as everyone wants it to be". If he had done that, he would have gotten some people that would agree, some that would disagree, and yes, maybe the odd dumbass just straight insulting him (because that does happen when, like you said, you have a lot of younger posters around). Instead, he decided to jump out of the gate and just straight start insulting people.

He has some points in what he said. There can't even be any debate on that. We all know that racing isn't perfect in Paradise. It's just too bad he decided to bury his points under a ton of flamebait and angry comments straight from the start. Now you guys seem to know him well. I don't know if maybe that's just the way he's always been and you expect that from him or what... but in general, I think you can agree with me that going in with both barrels a-blazing and straight calling people liars isn't the best way to get some constructive dialogue going.

Like I said in the thread, if anyone thinks that jumping on every negative opinion is going to assure them of elite status, they're very wrong. To be quite honest with you, I think the idea of elite status has kind of been tarnished by some of the people that have been chosen for elite status. No one on the forum should ever be simply telling people to f-off, especially not the elites. I won't stick up for anyone else's comments or actions but my own. I'm not perfect either, and sometimes I do attack people when I shouldn't and I'm trying to improve on that and I'm hoping that the elites and some of our younger forum posters will try to follow my lead.

Negative constructive feedback is very important to the process of making Paradise a better game, just like a clam needs to be irritated to create a pearl.

I know your faith in the people that populate the Criterion forums is probably at an all-time low and I can't say I blame you one bit. I just hope that you don't think we're all like that, even if we don't see eye to eye on things.

- Jay

As one of the Elites, I can tell you that I'm embarrassed about that thread in general, and the fact that one of us told you to shut up and went off on Microsoft in particular. There's no excuse for it. I also took my shots at KB when I shouldn't have. I'm supposed to hold myself to a higher standard than that and for that, I am sorry.

I think if KB had decided to cool down before posting and spent a little more time thinking about the words he was going to use, we would have had a much more interesting, calm and useful discussion and I think it's clear that you agree judging from the first line of your comment.

Microsoft's software being buggy or not was irrelevant and shouldn't have been brought up. I personally don't know why there are more PS3 players than 360 players, but I know it's most likely got nothing to do with the quality of MS's code... even if MS code had anything to do with the Cagney delay on 360, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

I don't like the idea of the community being divided between the hardcore B3/Revenge fans that love the constant adrenaline rush and the Paradise fans that enjoy a more laid back approach to Burnout. The whole reason why these flamewars start is because fans on both sides of things are extremely passionate about Burnout... so that's why it's just so easy to jump in and take a few shots. I hope that things don't need to deteriorate further.

-Jay

Im deducing from this that this is what your telling me, that they are elites because they can only invite other people in who fit their category? So if they are a bunch of gay guys then......? Or because they know Paradise or Revenge because they have 1000 GS on the games? Wow! Some Standard!

I must have high standards of what an Elite is because knowing where to go and perform 7 barrel rolls or 2080 degree flat spins isnt part of it. Doing a 100% power park isnt it either. It isnt knowing the track either cause anyone can memorize tracks. Those things, I certainly dont categorize as skill.

Im assumming that Elites must have some driving and maintaining their boost skill right? Like can they consistently win matches? Do they have top times in the leaderboards? Do they do it legitly and without cheating, boosting up, or changing the checkpoints only to the tracks they know? You see where Im going with this? Or is it because they "just know more stuff" to write about in Paradise? Because if that was the case then the next noob I race that cant keep up with a 1000 GS in Revenge must be an elite.

How come there isnt a Revenge Elite Club? We could sure go to the forums and call everyone a bunch of profanities for saying Revenge sucks. It might be fun! Oh wait, I know already a couple of people there too.

IT FEELS GOOD! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

Jay, how do you exactly get into the Elite Club? and what are the qualifications of being in an Elite Club? I actually want to know not because I want to jump in but because Im just curious as to what your Standards are.

I do want to say Good Call on the post tho and I know there are people in Revenge who would do the same exact thing and tell you Paradise players to shut up and go F yourself. There is a deep rift between Revenge and Paradise players and I can see it, so your post was a welcomed one to see. At least we all know there are people who are trying to get along on both sides of the field.

Me, however, I want to perpetuate it some more. 

IT FEELS GOOD! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

On the average age of the Elites... 12 isn't far off. One of them actually is 12.

I don't remember if I had answered you in your original thread on the forums, so I'll try to answer you now.

When you want to release anything on the major gaming platforms, your game/update has to pass certification tests. They are generally checklists listing everything your game/update has to live up to. So, for example, the update file name, file size, content and so on. Now, we know that Paradise is cross-platform from the start due to using Renderware... so when they make a game or update for the PS3 and Xbox 360, almost every single bit of code is shared between the two. Logically speaking, bugs found in the 360 version should also be in the PS3 version because of it.

The difference is in the certification checklists used by both systems. Microsoft appears to have a more exhaustive set of requirements for Xbox Live. That is because they are dead serious about protecting their users and protecting stuff like the gamerscore from tampering. As Criterion themselves have said in the past, a previous version of the game had been rejected by Microsoft QA because the game connected to outside servers, in this case, the same servers that the PS3 version was hosted on. Due to the MS checklist, Criterion had to go back into the game and forcably separate the two systems so that they couldn't play online together (which was the original plan, apparently).

Cagney failed MS certification after passing EA's Worldwide certification tests. What that usually entails is checking against their own copy of the MS checklist. Only after it passes does the update get sent to MS for certification. This is done to save time and money because a failure means having to resubmit.

If the update got past EA certification and then failed MS certification, this tells me that someone in EA worldwide screwed up and missed a few of the checklist points and as a result, the update has to be resubmitted after being fixed, which takes extra time.

As a former QA person, I can tell you that they can fail you for something as minor as wrong capitalization of a word in the technical documentation. It's always a pain to deal with and that's why Criterion is attempting to deliver updates and new data on the fly - so that they no longer have to bother with certification and the headaches it brings.

As for the Xbox/PS3 separation, I agree with Zombietron (but didn't get the chance to voice my opinion because the topic was closed).

Anyways, I realize that this is a hell of a long post and you probably don't care all that much about Paradise anymore, but I thought you were owed a proper, decent attempt at an answer for the delay.

- Jay

Well, that's not exactly easy to explain, because sometimes even us Elites wonder how some of the others deserved it. Generally speaking, Criterion gives elite status to those members of the community that it deems valuable. So, what makes someone valuable to them?

In some cases, it's showing extreme dedication to the game and the team, such as beating Criterion QA's best speed run to 100% or flying halfway across the world to meet them in person. Other cases, it's for being well known as a good person to play with online (being helpful with challenges, being fun to be around, etc..) In my particular case, it's because of my level of community involvement and desire to help the game and the community around a game I love. I've written the FAQ and Burnout Updates threads stickied on the forums and keep them updated. I write in and show Criterion guys various bugs and problems in the game and just trying to be helpful in general, both on the forum and in the game.

I wasn't doing it to get elite status (because at the time, I had no idea how to get it, nor was there a reason to want it as there was no reward), but just to help out.

The community can nominate people it deems worthy of elite status but it's ultimately up to Criterion to make that decision.

In general, elites are expected to be helpful and to remain respectful of everyone on the forums and in the game. That clearly doesn't always happen (and even I'm guilty of it from time to time). I'm not responsible for what the other elites do or say, but I do feel that they reflect badly on me as well.

- Jay

No, the elites cannot invite anyone into the elite club. That line of text about the group leader is the standard forum template. And looking at the elite poster group page, you'll see that there isn't a group leader at all.  I think I've already answered the rest of your questions in one of my other comments.

- Jay

Yes you did... Thank you...

The Elite status was more in terms with how sociable, how helpful you are, and how much you contribute to the community. Thats a very good thing. I was just wondering because I have a different perspective of what an Elite is; Skill-wise. Its neither bad nor good, just a different perspective.  

IT FEELS GOOD! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

As one of the few Revenge players who actually enjoys Paradise, I'd just like to point out a couple obvious reasons why a lot of old-school burners don't enjoy the new game...

(1) It's very different from Revenge. I know Rofer and a few other players didn't give Paradise much of a chance because it doesn't "feel" like a Burnout game, and of course they're entitled to their own opinion, but seriously - did anyone really expect drift jumping to be in the game after Criterion revealed to us that it was a glitch?

(2) The racing itself. First off, the takedowns. I'm sorry, maybe it's really hard for Criterion to fix these latency issues, but when you've been racing under a great, usually lag-free takedown system in Burnout 3/Revenge for three years, Paradise's battling physics are a complete joke. Most of the racers I play with on Paradise, even those in the top 10, agree with me. I mean, seriously... if these lag issues can't get fixed, Criterion needs to seriously consider just removing takedowns from the game altogether. And there are a bunch of other issues as well, ranging from what happens when you hit another driver's wreck (in Paradise, you have to wait the full 5 seconds to respawn even after the guy on the ground has already respawned) to the horrible navigation system (a GPS arrow like in Need for Speed would've worked better).

But I think the takedowns are the big thing - one of my friends in particular gets really frustrated every time he plays Paradise because he keeps getting taken down at the beginning and never has a shot at winning a race. Usually, he ends up quitting after only a couple racing sets...

I see where your going on this one but does all the above named things really give you the right to claim the title of an ELITE......where does it state ''How to become an ELITE''.....i wonder if they have some kind of school boy induction....or even a strict code of silence....?.....maybe we should create our own little Revenge Elite Club....but there would have to be the rule that these members actually play the game..lolol....alot of the names of the so called ELITE RACERS?......i dont even know.....do you?.....there that ELITE that no one knows them....maybe there the noobs who drive the concrete cars?..............so in the ideal world an ELITE racer knows every track, trick, turn, boost, drift, harrier etc etc....plays every day....has top 100 laptimes legitimately.....WOO-HOO IM AN ELITE.....Wheres my badge....{clapping}........

Yeah i also have my own perspective of these ELITES......especially the UNKNOWN ELITES?.......maybe they only exist on PARADISE?......who knows.....well never be allowed in to find out unless we get a golden ticket that is....?

Thats why every single thing I wrote was in question marks because Im just as lost as you...

IT FEELS GOOD! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

I think the confusion lies with the words used. When people say "Elite", they think of the Criterion Elite license in Paradise and so they think that it consists of people who have gotten it.. which would be almost everyone. lol

The actual title is "Criterion Elite Fan", but people on the Criterion pages just simply call them Elite. Generally speaking though, almost all of the elites are good enough to qualify if you wanted to look at it from a skills perspective as well.

I really wish they had chosen a different word. ;)

- Jay

That might be it, but after playing so many people I never base anything off gamerscore and I dont think that Criterion Elite License proves anything because your right anyone can get it. But thanks for clarifying what a Criterion Elite Fan is. Notice I actually said the entire thing rather than just Elite.

ITS LIBERATING! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

I have to disagree with you whenever i hear people say that they are ELITE at something thats usually what it means THE BEST AT?..... The position of an elite at the top of the social strata almost invariably puts them in a position of leadership and often subjects the holders of elite status to pressure to maintain their position as part of the elite. However, in spite of the pressures, the existence of the elite social stratum is usually unchanged....

I just wanted to say thanks to everybody for contributing to this discussion today. I was very angry this morning when I read some of the comments to KB's post, which although it could have been worded in a more diplomatic way, I personally found no offence in what was said, but I did find some of the responses offencive and reported them as such.

Reading the discussion here has helped me to put this mornings anger into perspective and your contributions have reaffirmed my faith in the Burnout community (that sounds real sappy, but anyways..)

Thanks Guys! (and Gals)

YOU ROCK!!

Well, I just recently took a look at those forums. Heck, I didnt even know that they existed until earlier this morning. Just out of curiosity, I went and took a look at it today. So, your going to have to bear with me on this one because this is definitely coming from someone who MAY be partial to Revenge more than Paradise and from someone who has never been there so I have no idea what the politics is like in that forum.

Well I know for once that I probably wouldnt be posting there because I dont like how the forum is organized. Its seems to garbled up in my screen and its messy with all those pictures in each post that it makes it harder to read for me. Im sure that isnt the case for some people. Thats not my beef tho, because as I was reading that I see too many fanboys and zealots there. There is really no need for me to post there when you really cant get any decent answer other than a flame war. Its too funny sometimes.

I dont know about you or whoever goes there, when you talk about a community divided, I would definitely consider that a divided one. And guess who is perpetuating it? My answer is Criterion itself. Wanna know why? Because they handout Elite Titles to individuals. Im sure that they meant it for a good cause so that people will make an example and try to help each other, but guess what? All that did was split people into 2 categories. The special ones and the not so special ones. Thats why theres so many fanboys there, wanting to take a crack shot at that Elite position and many posts saying "Good Job to the Elites" or "Elites got there rank because of so and so" or "I want to be an Elite Member" or "You need some evidence to show that the Elites are egotistical". You get my picture so far? And back again how does Criterion perpetuate it? Oh lets give the Elites a special Elites only car. Wow! talk about creating a rift in a community. So now everyone wants to be an elite to get a car, to get recognized, ect., ect., ect. And what do they do, post to discourage negative reviews/ opinions about the game just so that they could get in. Interesting isnt it? Ever seen in from that point of view?

Wanna know what they should do? Just get rid of that title. You dont need to be given a title in helping people out in the forums. Tons of racers do that in the Xbox forums everyday and they dont get a title for it.

Like I said, theres no point for me going there. Too many little wannabes trying to get themselves recognized in such a bum ass forum.

ITS LIBERATING! THOSE WINGS, I WANT THEM TOO! I AM NERO ANGELO!

Thanks for taking the time out to post such a long and detailed explaination, and now i can see why the xbox version was delayed, MS being fuddy duddies, and EA worldwide being ejits.

And i do still still play paradise,still trying to get the elusive 2000 deg flatty.

And i apologise for saying your IQ is 12, I'm sure its a bit more than that.:)

Again thanks for your time and effort.

my dog ate my disc.

Nice to know we put a smile on your face zombie.....thats what were here for......all them times when you feel at your lowest you know that you have all your friends here to cheer you up..... and if all else fails you could go and visit ''Mr Eastern Bay'' he likes putting a smile on your face too....